But a prof said it, it must be true
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| Interesting glue factoid, true or not? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4497 |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:46 pm ] |
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I was in a stats class today and the topic of guitar building actually came up in regards to designing research experiments and studies. Anyhow, the stats prof. was from Bozeman, MT and mentioned that Gibson moved there from Memphis in large part because of the low humidity. The reason they said had nothing to do with keeping the wood dry, but rather glue adhesion. Apparently there is a lot of research about better glue adhesion in low humidity. My question is this: is the advantage gained from better glue adhesion worth the humidity being that low <20% for the rest of the build process? I would have thought the entire Gibson factory would be humidity controlled. What are all your thoughts on humidity and glue adhesion? Cheers! John |
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| Author: | Mario [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:02 pm ] |
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That's a first.... |
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| Author: | arvey [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:32 pm ] |
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But a prof said it, it must be true
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:54 pm ] |
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Could gibson's move have something to do with the change of ownership? And why didn't they move to Arizona? |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:12 pm ] |
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No change in ownership (unless Henry has an alternate personality that took over, which wouldn't surprise me much). Glues do cure faster in a low humidity, but in all the research I've been doing lately I've never heard a word about improvement of integrity of the bond. I'd guess it more likely that they chose Bozeman to buy Flatiron because they were building a superior product (if you can't beat 'em, buy 'em), and to utilize thier skilled workforce. And if you can pull the clamps 30 minutes sooner, minutes translate to efficiency and profits a company like that. I'm sure Henry would be flattered to hear professors teaching about his company making major changes in the name of quality control. The very thought has me rolling.  |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:23 pm ] |
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Oh, sorry Rod. I guess it was only a 5 year spread between Henry's takeover and the Bozeman plant. I suppose that makes sense too. For some reason I thought there was a bigger gap. |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:22 pm ] |
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We all have to learn about glue , either the hard way or by paying attention to what others tell us. A glue joint if forced will fail , old glue is bad glue , a bad joint will fail too much pressure will starve a joint and make it fail. Experience will also teach you. I never heard of humidity but I guess it can influece it. I think more for building conditions than anything. I like to build as dry as possible. john hall blues creek gutars |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:48 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=David Collins] I'm sure Henry would be flattered to hear professors teaching about his company making major changes in the name of quality control. The very thought has me rolling. [/QUOTE]
Actually, the prof knew nothing about guitar building, only that she had lived there and that it seemed common knowledge for people in the area that helped bring Gibson there. That's why it struck me so odd, somebody with no clue at all about building, but was so very specific about humidity and glue. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:58 pm ] |
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Honestly, sounds like somewhat of an urban myth that grew up around that community. I've seen enough/far too many reports of fairly catastrophic results due to guitars being built in too dry and/or too wet conditions, so I wouldn't think you'd gain anything there. Besides, how many million guitars are built at 43% humidity and have no problems with either swelling, cracking, or glue adhesion. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:11 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=arvey] But a prof said it, it must be true [/QUOTE]
Absolutely, Professors always give scrupulously accurate information to students (at least that's what I tell my students!) 
Colin |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:21 am ] |
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I don't know if Gibson moved to Montana to get better glue joints. However, I have noticed that AR glue seems to take longer in a humid environment. That is just an observation. I don't have any actual measurements. Titbond doesn't state differences in performance with regard to relative humidity. They probably do have a humidity controlled shop. It is a lot easier to add water to the air than to take it out. My shop humidifier cost $50 and uses very little power. My dehumidifier cost $350 and the lights dim when it turns on. |
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| Author: | Evan Gluck [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:47 am ] |
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Not too sure if anyone remembers this, I worked at Manny's in NYC when the first Gibson acoustics came out of Montana, I wound up sending 7 out of 10 back to them as the fingerboard extensions would develop humps after about 2 weeks in the shop. At first Henry said it was us until I reminded him I never send back Martins I realized it was a problem worldwide as the repairs would take up to a year to complete, oops. Sorry to say anything negative, but after so many years dealing in Gibsons in the 80's and 90's I have a bitter taste in my mouth.
Evan |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:42 am ] |
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Evan, trust me I know the feeling. I've been doing the same thing at Elderly's over the past few years. It seems like they had a good spell in the mid to late 90's, but not so much over the past few years. I had one customer who had to send his guitar back for warranty replacement three times in two years due to collapsing shoulders and top. When he got the fourth one he sold it right away rather than have to deal with it again. The majority of flattops were okay off the truck but time was certainly thier enemy, especially thier wide shouldered models. But of all the high end (5-digit pricing) mandolins and banjos, I would send back 2 out of 3. Half the ones that weren't sent back needed things like warranty nut replacement before they could go on the floor. I know the bitter taste very well. |
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| Author: | Evan Gluck [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:50 am ] |
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My God, I have such stories as well, my favorite thing that I ever did was I sent Henry J. a bill for my lost commissions when I was at Manny's, they wound up giving me an ES 347 to make up for my hassles. The finish on it exploded after 8 months and I sold it (true story)
As far as the current stuff goes, I do so many nut repairs and replacements on brand new guitars it is not even funny. Evan |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:19 am ] |
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The last Gibson "warranty" repair I did was replacing a nut on a customer's $9,000 Flint Hill Special. It was uneven spacing and cut too low. To top it off it came right at the same time as a lawsuit from Gibson (they probably spend more on lawyers than materials) and long story short, I never got paid. |
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